bearded dragon food

[Pooka]

Cyrene said:

This just came in from the Parasitolgy Research Lab of Steve J. Upton, PhD. Kansas State University. I wrote to him asking about the possibility of reptiles contracting the parasite from fish since I haven't been able to find any information regarding this specifically. I just thought I would pass it along.

" Fish Cryptosporidium do not infect reptiles. The reptiles have their own specific species that they contract orally from contaminated food or water. "

Thanks you Cyrene, you are a researching machine I was wodnering this same thing about my water dragon eating feeder fish and had not taken the time to ask it yet, but that answers the question.

[beardeddragon14]

They should eat crickets and powdered crickets when they are young and small mice when the are older

[Zippy]

They eat small mice too?

[beardeddragon14]

yes, they eat baby mice that are frozen and basically pink.

[spike]

yes they do eat baby mice. these are known as 'pinkies' they are baby, furless mice. But, they should only be fed to a gravid female, before and after the laying. This is because the are high in fat and another vitamin which i cant remember.

[Cyrene]

I've never heard of or seen a dragon that had problems from eating a pinky once a month or so for a treat. The way I see it, it's like anything WE eat...moderation is the key when it comes to fattening foods vs. our health. I have heard that pinkies are high in protien, which of course makes sense, it is meat after all...i just can't seem to find the percentage of protein to compare it to other foods.

[spike]

But a pinkie is quite a big meal for a dragon also..

[Zippy]

It is a big meal for all the dragons. Do you reccomend feeding pinkies to dragons?

[spike]

As i said in other threads, you should only feed pinkies to a gravid female after and before she lays the eggs. It helps her with the protein. And a healthy dragon shouldnt need a pinkie even as treat, in my opinion for something the size of a beardie, a pinkie is a big meal and shouldnt become apart of their diet unless they actually need it

[Cyrene]

I don't think Spike and I will ever agree on this subject...but that's OK
From the research that I've done, comparing proteins, calcium and phosphorus levels of different foods along with the studies of MBD, dragons that are fed pinkies are less likely to get MBD, less likely to have kidney failure and many other health problems.
The problem with feeding crickets as a staple is the phosphorus to calcium ratio they contain which is 1:12, whereas pinkies are 1:1. To add to the problem, most calcium powders contain phosphorus as well, and phosphorus binds calcium and makes it unusable. So, in feeding high phosphorus foods and then dusting them with more phosphorus, well, I just don't see how this is good for dragons either. Which is why I highly recommend a phosphorus free calcium supplement.
As far as the size goes, you can always chop the pinkies up. My dragons will eat anything from my fingers, whether it's moving or not. Feeder fish are also a good source of calcium and you can get them much smaller in size. The feeder fish White Clouds can be found as small as 1/8 inch.
The drawback to feeding pinkies is the high fat levels, which can lead to fatty liver disease, which is why I stated that they should be used as a treat and not a staple. The liver stores the fats for 'lean times' but our dragons don't encounter periods of no food so the liver doesn't release the fats and that is a problem.
I could go on and on about the benefits of feeding pinkies or fish, this is something I've researched thoroughly. There is an article on Melissa Kaplans site about Calcium metabolism and also some on Tricias site regarding Kidney Failure/MBD/Vit D supplements. You don't have to agree with the findings, but I encourage you to read the articles and do your own research into this.

[Pooka]

Cyrene said:

I don't think Spike and I will ever agree on this subject...but that's OK
From the research that I've done, comparing proteins, calcium and phosphorus levels of different foods along with the studies of MBD, dragons that are fed pinkies are less likely to get MBD, less likely to have kidney failure and many other health problems.
The problem with feeding crickets as a staple is the phosphorus to calcium ratio they contain which is 1:12, whereas pinkies are 1:1. To add to the problem, most calcium powders contain phosphorus as well, and phosphorus binds calcium and makes it unusable. So, in feeding high phosphorus foods and then dusting them with more phosphorus, well, I just don't see how this is good for dragons either. Which is why I highly recommend a phosphorus free calcium supplement.
As far as the size goes, you can always chop the pinkies up. My dragons will eat anything from my fingers, whether it's moving or not. Feeder fish are also a good source of calcium and you can get them much smaller in size. The feeder fish White Clouds can be found as small as 1/8 inch.
The drawback to feeding pinkies is the high fat levels, which can lead to fatty liver disease, which is why I stated that they should be used as a treat and not a staple. The liver stores the fats for 'lean times' but our dragons don't encounter periods of no food so the liver doesn't release the fats and that is a problem.
I could go on and on about the benefits of feeding pinkies or fish, this is something I've researched thoroughly. There is an article on Melissa Kaplans site about Calcium metabolism and also some on Tricias site regarding Kidney Failure/MBD/Vit D supplements. You don't have to agree with the findings, but I encourage you to read the articles and do your own research into this.

I have to agree with Cyrene on this one. All the data I have been able to find that has a shred of evidence backing it up points to a VARIED diet which includes the least amount of Phosphorus.

[spike]

Cyrene said:

The problem with feeding crickets as a staple is the phosphorus to calcium ratio they contain which is 1:12, whereas pinkies are 1:1.

doesnt that mean that pinkies have a higher phosphorus to calcium ratio or did you get them the wrong way......you had phosphrus : calcium
eg. crix 12 phosphourus : 144 calcium
pinkies 12 phos. : 12 calcium

[spike]

Oh and i think it is good that we dont agree i like a bit of a debate every now and then. .......

[Cyrene]

Yep, I did get that a little backwards It should read Calcium: Phosphorus
1:12 - crix
1:1 - pinkies
Thanks for the head's up, Spike

And I'm so glad you don't mind a good debate now and then. So many ppl are so set in there ways they can't see the benefits of a little disagreement. At least this way others get 2 sides of the same subject and have the chance to decide what is best for them and their dragons.

[Pooka]

Cyrene said:

Yep, I did get that a little backwards It should read Calcium: Phosphorus
1:12 - crix
1:1 - pinkies
Thanks for the head's up, Spike

And I'm so glad you don't mind a good debate now and then. So many ppl are so set in there ways they can't see the benefits of a little disagreement. At least this way others get 2 sides of the same subject and have the chance to decide what is best for them and their dragons.

.:Applause:. very nice I am glad to see that a little good natured debate can be handled by our forum membership without degenrateing into flameing and hurt feelings.